I have a 3D printer I bought a few years ago and I keep it in my office. It was quite loud as is and I sent through the process of quieting it down. Fans were a big part of it. It has four of them: power supply, main board, and two on the hot end/extruder. Noctua was what was mostly recommended, but (a) price and (b) at the time I believe they mostly or only had 12 volt fans and this printer ran on 24V so each fan would need a voltage converter board.
Well turns out you can get quieter and cheaper fans on e.g. Mouser or Newark that are 24V compatible. They let you sort and filter by size, voltage, noise level, and volume per minute so I found the quietest possible fans that still move roughly the same volume of air as the stock ones. The price was half to a quarter of equivalent Noctua fans (excluding converters) at that time.
From what I hear (pun intended) Noctua makes a great product both functionally and aesthetically, but don’t overlook industrial suppliers either.
Did you also stat out the static pressure? It's an important factor I don't see you mention and a lot of people over look it. It's especially important on some of those fans because the ducting and cooling they're pushing has restrictions and need a fair amount of static pressure to maintain the rated CF/M. Quieter fans generally have a lower static pressure rating too so you might not be getting the CFM you think for fans like the part cooling fan that has to push the air through the ducting around the head.
CFM is not a static value it depends on the 'load' applied to the fan, a fan with no restrictions will have higher CFM than the same fan facing no restrictions and the relationship between the CFM and the static pressure depends on the fan design. Low static pressure fans can't push air effectively through tubes or restrictions and the flow volume (CFM) drops because it cannot push the air on the output hard enough to flow. High SP fans usually have larger more closely spaced blades so that the air cannot escape back through the fan.
For example on radiators you need higher static pressure fans to push the air through the small space between the fins on the radiator, if you use a high CFM fan with low mm H2O (static pressure) the fan doesn't actually manage to push the rated CFM through the radiator. Same for ducting you see in 3DP applications.
CFM is a measure of volume moved, generally quoted at effectively zero static pressure. Zero static pressure is rarely reality. All fans will have a static pressure vs airflow curve, which will vary based on the design of the fan.
I doubt normal people have the tools to measure fan CFM, especially when mounted into a product or enclosure, so presumably the OP was going based on stated specs.
On top of that low static pressure fans are generally quieter so if dB and CFM were their main criteria they probably didn't get the correct fans which is why I asked.
>From what I hear (pun intended) Noctua makes a great product both functionally and aesthetically
Can confirm. I was unaware of the large difference in different fans that weren't priced far apart previous to a Noctua recommendation. After hearing them in situ beside some other brands it is incredible the difference in sound. I strictly use them on my homelab and the spinning hard-drives make more noise than the fans.
We tolerate way too much noise in our daily lives, especially in dense cities. It’s a hidden tax on our health. Constant low-level noise has been linked to stress, sleep disruption, and even cardiovascular issues.
What bothers me is that we only regulate the loudest offenders (cars, motorcycles, construction), while the residual of everything else is just accepted as background. But that background adds up.
I wish we had stricter regulations not only for peak noise but also for the residual noise emitted by everyday objects. If reducing a few decibels here and there became a design goal across the board, the cumulative effect on quality of life in cities would be enormous.
Some years ago I had my first panic attack at work. Walking home was an atrocity; and since then I'm much more aware of how noisy a city can be.
Now I have a kid I often walk around. You're even more sensitive to city noises when you're desperately trying to keep your baby asleep!
The two big offenders where we live are a) drunk students partying outside; b) motorcycles (which are somehow allowed to be this noisy?). It's a pedestrian-focused city mostly car-free, but motorcycles and young drunkards more than compensate.
Another source of annoyance are the beeps and boops that every household appliance thinks they need to have. The microwave's song when it finishes, the water boiler's super loud beep, the washing machine's stupid jingle at start and end of a cycle, etc.
Going to Shanghai (FFC) and seeing a bus driver flashing headlights instead of honking at a green light laggard was eye opening. All the electric cars and mopeds too of course.
Coming back to NYC afterwards was wild. The fucking food stand generators. AC vents. The cars. The buses.
I live out in the country now where it is nice and quiet but when I was in grad school I worked for a summer in NYC and had an apartment in midtown. One of the many delights was having an apartment whose sole window opened into an interior courtyard that was maybe 10’ wide x 10’ long. Despite the fact that it did not directly open to the street, the noise from the window was so intense that I basically never opened it.
I eventually came to appreciate that the noise level (and god, trash odors) were tolerable as long as you either never went outside, or you limited your exposure to the few modestly quiet places or times in the city. Weekend noise level could be pleasant at times but holy Christ… do the sirens ever stop?!!!
My brother's car/camping fridge's compressor fan died. He replaced it with a Noctua. It's 1/3rd the volume and actually has slightly MORE airlow than the 20c 90mm fan that was ziptied to it from the factory.
There are special brackets for mounting HDDs, where there are rubber rings interposed between the mounting screws and the bracket, in order to prevent the transmission of the HDD vibrations to the chassis, which usually greatly amplifies the HDD noise.
With such brackets the noise is usually reduced a lot. There are some computer cases that are advertised as silent cases and which include such brackets by default (e.g. from Fractal Design).
Try styrofoam, a couple layers of soft packaging wrap, thick cloth, etc.
My other hack is WOL + auto-suspend for my NAS. Wakes up for backup jobs, goes back to sleep when done (and there are no SSH sessions left open). Very hacky but works flawlessly. (Usually.)
It's probably coupling the vibration into whatever shelf it's sitting on, which then transduces it to the air. Set the unit on some foam, it helps a lot.
I bought some custom molded earplugs recently and I got 3 sets - two are completely sealed off and are very nice for when I wish for peace and quiet and don’t need to hear or speak.
I also use noise canceling mode on my airpods pro quite often.
The advantage is that it works even when I’m in an environment I can’t control, like an airport or waiting room.
The whole black part of the case is for cooling if I understand correctly, so compared to your computer where the CPU can reach 90+ but the case stays at most warm, there the whole case reaches 70+ degrees.
Maybe a really mild winter; it's the same power as when I had my overhead light (2 60W lightbulbs) on in my room as a kid, and that didn't heat my room all on its own.
That's a very cool hack, but there are tons of things on a system that aren't the CPU that would benefit from some moving air. A fan somewhere in the system that just moves a bit of air would, I think, really contribute to the overall longevity.
Phones and tablets are designed for passive cooling. And not always well to boot, but you can at least assume they didn’t design for elements with ancillary active cooling.
The one tends to cause the other. There aren't any FETs anywhere in an iPhone that are passing 100A continuously. In any case, it's designed for that situation, whereas the Framework Desktop is designed under the presumption of the presence of a fan.
This isn't a problem. The article says that this is only if you're looking to trade-off performance for less noise:
> In other words, we would only recommend upgrading to the NF-A12x25 G2 if you seek to lower noise levels as much as possible and if you are willing to sacrifice the maximum performance headroom in worst-case scenarios that the G1 HS-PWM fan provides.
> In addition to redesigning and testing the Noctua fan grill, we also evaluated various other scenarios. These included replacing the NF-A12x25 with its G2 variant and incorporating an additional 8cm fan for exhaust purposes.
> It seems pretty bad to need to print your own grill when Noctua collaborated on the project.
not really, like if that would be seen as bad in general then the only solution would be to keep it a secret that they "collaborated" on it
like giving you employees a bit of time to work on product related passion projects, which might even cross company boundaries and can be used in a PR context is one thing. And a good example for it is software companies reserving some time of employees to work on OSS (in a context where OSS contributions go beyond what the company needs). It boost employee moral, is positive PR, let people learn/train their skills etc.
but going from there to a product they sell is a HUGE step, like far larger then it seems
like the cost between the tinkerer project from the article and turning it into a product is more like a x-times multipler then some two digit % increase.
a good example is a previous collaboration where for a 3d printed casing for the framework 13 motherboard, where due to high demand they then decided to produce it
but for production lines you now need to meet higher quality standard and 3d printing often isn't an option, so no it needs 2 molds and in addition the screw now need to have proper stable/metal thingies you screw them into in-layed into the mold. And you need to have QA, production line inspections etc. Idk. if they made money or a loss or neutral on it but at least from a QA perspective they got burned as many of the casings had quality issues where you needed to fix them with a sharp knife or they wouldn't close properly
now companies have 3 choices
- not allow such passion projects, which sucks for everyone
- allows them, but keep them secret, which still sucks for most
- rebrand it as "some vision prototype", "experimental change to the form factor" or similar (which is what many other tech companies do), now most people are happy except the tinkerers which could just print it, let it be printed with a 3d printing service
- allow them, show them, and make most people happy except the small amount of people which really want it, aren't fine with any tinkering and blame the company for showing something nice which might not make sense to sell as a product
and in that context I really prefer it the way Framework and Noctua tend to do it
Noctua was founded and operates in accordance with my values. I valued what they offer before they were in the market and was overjoyed to buy their products as soon as they were available.
Raspberry Pis, repurposed HP DL380s, personal art projects... anything that ever needed a fan--if it didn't use Noctua fans before I started and there was an application for a Noctua fan, a Noctua fan was applied.
Fan quality is one of the metrics I evaluate when I purchase products. Great fan solutions in products are good indicators of great design.
Its really cool how, despite the core chip at the heart of the Framework Desktop not being that extensible, Framework went out of their way to make the FD as extensible and modular as possible, and are fostering a community of 3D printing stuff around it.
I loves me some Noctua. I suspect that the very quiet single 120mm is enough to keep air moving sufficiently through my 3090 GPU server chassis (though I also put a couple 80mm where 4U chassis airflow narrows in the rear, just to be safe).
I also put Noctuas in short-depth 1U servers and routers at home, usually 40mm.
Nocuta is a case study in how to make a high quality and luxury product to dominate a seemly small market. In a seemingly commoditized market where fans can be had for $3-$4 Nocuta still demands and get's $30-$40 dollars.
I don't think they dominate. Noctua used to be the best, but current reputation as far as I've seen is that the performance isn't necessarily better than the competition. You buy them for durability and supporting the engineering, but most (not some/fringe) DIY builders choose a cheaper brand.
It's a bit more pronounced in CPU cooling towers, they are solid blocks where durability doesn't play a role. Noctua is good but the top performer and market leader is Thermalright which costs a third of Noctua.
Noctua also provides free new mounts. I've had the same NH-D12 for over a decade now and whenever I switch CPU socket they send me a new mount for free.
Nope no data, that's why I prefixed with "I don't think". It's a sentiment from six months of reading product reviews and forum discussions. I took some good time building a new desktop.
People were recommending Noctua for long term durability, sure. But seems it's a minority who's willing to pay the premium for that.
Some data would of course be interesting.
Edit: Mindfactory is one of the few that publishes numbers. On a quick glance (didn't sum totals) looks like Arctic leads, followed by be quiet! and Noctua on the third spot. be quiet! is a German brand so that gets somewhat biased.
I did a quick data extraction on that linked Mindfactory segment, and be quiet! leads after all. As said, not quite representative but maybe indicative.
Not sure I agree here. Yes, maybe it's 10x the price (which I doubt in the first place) it's actually performing very well, measurably.
I don't know how you benchmark a Rolex vs a Seiko for 500 bucks. That is luxury to me. And yet it is perfectly fine to argue a Casio for 10-20 bucks performs just as well.
Fair, but sort of my point. Make a extraordinary superior product in a very niche market and educated consumers will pay. Sure, there will always be uneducated or just "frugal" or cheap consumers but they are the fringe. Example are luxury brands such as Mercedes or Rolex. A hot take, but can't be denied as well Apple.
With the all-flat layout of the Ryzen APU and soldered memory I always though the framework desktop MB would be ideal for a single waterblock covering the entire MB.
Gotta give it the old Noctua and blow on that thang. Their fans are seriously awesome. I didn’t believe the hype at first until a Ryzen build was 5-15C cooler, and a lot quieter.
The GMK X2 doesn't have the Framework motherboard, but it's the same AMD APU, so the characteristics should be similar.
This really ought to be a consumer-grade LLM powerhouse, but the results were underwhelming. Due to the APU design, bandwidth between the APU and the discrete GPU is limited. From the Reddit poster "In this case adding the 7900xtx is effectively like just having another 24GB added to the 128GB."
Running an AMD GPU with the AMD APU should save the headache of dealing with both Nvidia and AMD drivers on the same host. It's possible that an Nvidia GPU might give better performance here, or there might be other optimizations to be made.
A GPU like that wouldn’t fit in the case and kinda defeats the purpose of getting the included mobo/CPU/iGPU combo... so why are you trying to make a discrete GPU work with that PC at all rather than just getting mini-ITX system with a standard desktop CPU?
I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.
I agree, but here's a quote from the CEO explaining (to some degree) the choice:
“So we did actually ask AMD about this the first time they told us about Strix Halo. It was literally our first question: ‘How do we get modular memory? We are Framework after all.’ And they didn’t say no actually, they did assign one of their technical architects to really really go deep on this—they ran simulations, they ran studies, and they just determined it’s not possible with Strix Halo to do LPCAMM. The signal integrity doesn’t work out because of how that memory’s fanning out over the 256-bit bus.”
I never understand this justification. If the tech does not allow, then don't do it if it's against your own core value. Instead, they join the quick cash grab AI-train.
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment.
Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
> The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
Right, you'd put in two of them.
Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there.
If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
Most people probably never upgrade their machines at all. In my case I used the same PC from 2009 until about a month ago. Over its 16 year lifespan it saw 3 GPUs, the memory was doubled from 6GB to 12GB, a Wifi card was added (and then got flakey after about 7 years but was able to switch to Ethernet over coax with MoCa), and an SSD was added for hosting the OS and most apps (original HDD relegated to additional storage).
If you're planning for a 10-12 year lifespan I have this advice. CPUs have surprising longevity these days as most usages don't significantly tax them, go a little above mid range on core count and it should last. GPUs are a throwaway item, plan to replace them every 3-5 years to stay current. Storage can be something that's worth adding if you're planning for a long lifespan and depending on usage. Photos, video, and games use more storage than they used to but personal photos and videos largely live in the cloud now. RAM you might need to upgrade if you go midrange but might not if you aim higher than standard in the initial build. The buses and interfaces become the main limiting factors to longevity. RAM technology will advance, PCIe and USB will have new versions. There may be new standards you can't take advantage of, like I was still on SATA II when the world had since moved on to SATA III and then NVMe.
Sometimes it's more about repairability than upgradability. My stuff lasted but I've had HDDs, PSUs, and fans die in the past. It's nice to be able to replace a dead part and move on.
I will also say that I'm a little surprised that the enthusiast market is still mostly these big ATX mid tower cases. They feel massive and unnecessary today when 5.25" bays are obsolete and storage is not 3.5" HDDs but an m.2 chips that sit flush with the motherboard. The smaller form factors are still the exception. Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
> Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
I think it's more to have a big window with lots of RGB LEDs to show off on the internet.
Newer SFF cases from Ncase/Formd/Louqe are designed with perforations or mesh on every exterior surface to maximize air flow. They can support an air-cooled 5090 and an AIO or massive tower cooler for the CPU. Put a 1000W SFX PSU in there and I don't know if you'd really be wanting for anything spec-wise.
> Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
For me, no. I bought a big case, Fractal North XL. It sits on the floor next to my desk so the size really doesn't matter at all to me, except I want it tall enough so that it's convenient to turn on.
It's a nice bonus that building and maintenance is also easier, but it's frankly it's the reaching convenience that matters the most. Could even be a bit larger still.
A small platform to elevate the case off the floor can help lower dust accumulation and may also help it reach the perfect button pushing height for you!
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
It is ironic, but there's a sound technical reason here. They wouldn't be able to get the same memory performance using upgradeable slotted DIMMs. I do appreciate that Framework offers the motherboards for sale so you can use them with your own case and power supply.
It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc.
I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds.
So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
> It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
That makes it more surprising. It's not that desktops went off in a different direction. Desktops are moving closer to their area of expertise and yet they are unable to apply that expertise.
There is a part salvage factor to consider. If one can pull the drive, they can attempt to send it out for data recovery or wipe it for resale. If they can also pull the RAM, they can recover more costs.
That particular source is sold out but it's not where a computer manufacturer is getting parts.
The availability is real. You can buy a thinkpad with LPCAMM2 right now, and in fact you've been able to buy that laptop for over a year. And you can get it with 64GB modules, which is what you'd need to set up 128GB on a 256 bit memory bus.
Every AMD and Intel APU has had unified memory for many generations, as have mobile devices. It's sad how many people Apple's marketing has misled about something that's been standard in the industry for ages.
> It must be noted that customer safety and EMC requirements for the mini PC, a standalone electrical item, differ from those for hardware components (such as the PSU) designed to be inside a PC case. The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter.
...but it's a plastic panel? I don't understand how this helps with EMC.
If I were that concerned about noise from my computers, I would leverage the inverse square law and put them in another room and use long video and input cables.
If you use HDR 4k or even 5k screens and are looking for a decent framerate, the maximum cable length is quite short (on the order of 3m for an UHBR10 DP40).
There exist solutions for that with active cables or optical cables, but that quickly gets expensive and complicated.
It's more than just the Noctua fan. The fan grille is a contributing factor to noise [0]. The new design features in the article could reduce the noise of any 120mm fan.
Well the fan in the Framework desktop is some kind of purpose built high performance Noctua fan that is significantly louder than usual. So they are suggesting to use the new grill with the fan that comes with it so you don't encounter throttling.
Noctua makes 2000rpm and 3000rpm max variants of the NF-F12. Otherwise, through (over)engineered geometry and materials, their fans usually do push the most air volume and pressure at a given volume level, with a more pleasant sound profile. But you pay for it.
Noctua fans are quieter than most for a given airflow level.
They have a range of fan speeds going up to very high speeds.
Many people doing modifications will substitute a lower airflow fan for even more noise reduction, which might be why you’re thinking they flow less. That’s a function of fan choice, though.
Noctua fans perform very well on a noise-adjusted basis.
I think noctua fans are just better fans, noisewise.
They have better airflow design and sound dampening/isolating screw mounts.
I think the idea about reduced airflow might be backwards - most systems use PWM to spin the fans based on CPU or system temperature. This means the systems get the airflow they need.
Also, they make larger heatsinks + fans for certain systems that allow the same airflow using a larger, slower spinning fan. which means less sound.
that said, there are some noctua fans that can spin faster than others.
Framework lets you buy bare mainboards, if you can't run those on your table without the radio police swatting your house then they wouldn't be allowed to sell them anyway.
There’s more to it than that. It’s better for the longevity of the components to be shielded, and the noise it gives iff could bother you in your home, in terms of wifi, Bluetooth, etc interference. I practice electric guitar at home and I don’t want an unshielded computer near me when I’m doing that.
I have a 3D printer I bought a few years ago and I keep it in my office. It was quite loud as is and I sent through the process of quieting it down. Fans were a big part of it. It has four of them: power supply, main board, and two on the hot end/extruder. Noctua was what was mostly recommended, but (a) price and (b) at the time I believe they mostly or only had 12 volt fans and this printer ran on 24V so each fan would need a voltage converter board.
Well turns out you can get quieter and cheaper fans on e.g. Mouser or Newark that are 24V compatible. They let you sort and filter by size, voltage, noise level, and volume per minute so I found the quietest possible fans that still move roughly the same volume of air as the stock ones. The price was half to a quarter of equivalent Noctua fans (excluding converters) at that time.
From what I hear (pun intended) Noctua makes a great product both functionally and aesthetically, but don’t overlook industrial suppliers either.
Did you also stat out the static pressure? It's an important factor I don't see you mention and a lot of people over look it. It's especially important on some of those fans because the ducting and cooling they're pushing has restrictions and need a fair amount of static pressure to maintain the rated CF/M. Quieter fans generally have a lower static pressure rating too so you might not be getting the CFM you think for fans like the part cooling fan that has to push the air through the ducting around the head.
they said "volume per minute" so, yes, they were getting the CFM they wanted
CFM is not a static value it depends on the 'load' applied to the fan, a fan with no restrictions will have higher CFM than the same fan facing no restrictions and the relationship between the CFM and the static pressure depends on the fan design. Low static pressure fans can't push air effectively through tubes or restrictions and the flow volume (CFM) drops because it cannot push the air on the output hard enough to flow. High SP fans usually have larger more closely spaced blades so that the air cannot escape back through the fan.
For example on radiators you need higher static pressure fans to push the air through the small space between the fins on the radiator, if you use a high CFM fan with low mm H2O (static pressure) the fan doesn't actually manage to push the rated CFM through the radiator. Same for ducting you see in 3DP applications.
CFM is a measure of volume moved, generally quoted at effectively zero static pressure. Zero static pressure is rarely reality. All fans will have a static pressure vs airflow curve, which will vary based on the design of the fan.
I doubt normal people have the tools to measure fan CFM, especially when mounted into a product or enclosure, so presumably the OP was going based on stated specs.
On top of that low static pressure fans are generally quieter so if dB and CFM were their main criteria they probably didn't get the correct fans which is why I asked.
>From what I hear (pun intended) Noctua makes a great product both functionally and aesthetically
Can confirm. I was unaware of the large difference in different fans that weren't priced far apart previous to a Noctua recommendation. After hearing them in situ beside some other brands it is incredible the difference in sound. I strictly use them on my homelab and the spinning hard-drives make more noise than the fans.
Only slightly off topic but I sincerely wish Noctua was everywhere else in my life.
Like I’d love for them to make my HVAC system quieter.
Or table fans. Or car air conditioners.
Just about every fan in my life would be better if Noctua redesigned it.
They’d be like Dolby, but for making LESS noise.
We tolerate way too much noise in our daily lives, especially in dense cities. It’s a hidden tax on our health. Constant low-level noise has been linked to stress, sleep disruption, and even cardiovascular issues.
What bothers me is that we only regulate the loudest offenders (cars, motorcycles, construction), while the residual of everything else is just accepted as background. But that background adds up.
I wish we had stricter regulations not only for peak noise but also for the residual noise emitted by everyday objects. If reducing a few decibels here and there became a design goal across the board, the cumulative effect on quality of life in cities would be enormous.
Some years ago I had my first panic attack at work. Walking home was an atrocity; and since then I'm much more aware of how noisy a city can be.
Now I have a kid I often walk around. You're even more sensitive to city noises when you're desperately trying to keep your baby asleep!
The two big offenders where we live are a) drunk students partying outside; b) motorcycles (which are somehow allowed to be this noisy?). It's a pedestrian-focused city mostly car-free, but motorcycles and young drunkards more than compensate.
Another source of annoyance are the beeps and boops that every household appliance thinks they need to have. The microwave's song when it finishes, the water boiler's super loud beep, the washing machine's stupid jingle at start and end of a cycle, etc.
Going to Shanghai (FFC) and seeing a bus driver flashing headlights instead of honking at a green light laggard was eye opening. All the electric cars and mopeds too of course.
Coming back to NYC afterwards was wild. The fucking food stand generators. AC vents. The cars. The buses.
I live out in the country now where it is nice and quiet but when I was in grad school I worked for a summer in NYC and had an apartment in midtown. One of the many delights was having an apartment whose sole window opened into an interior courtyard that was maybe 10’ wide x 10’ long. Despite the fact that it did not directly open to the street, the noise from the window was so intense that I basically never opened it.
I eventually came to appreciate that the noise level (and god, trash odors) were tolerable as long as you either never went outside, or you limited your exposure to the few modestly quiet places or times in the city. Weekend noise level could be pleasant at times but holy Christ… do the sirens ever stop?!!!
This is why I wear earplugs when I commute on the NYC subway which is notoriously loud. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2707461/
> I wish we had stricter regulations
By now HN should have a bot to automatically post the above quote in every new thread created, because someone will always make that comment.
There are very quiet places you can move to, so quiet that you can hear your own blood vessels.
My brother's car/camping fridge's compressor fan died. He replaced it with a Noctua. It's 1/3rd the volume and actually has slightly MORE airlow than the 20c 90mm fan that was ziptied to it from the factory.
You dont even notice it at first, but when I started wearing airpods pro at work, the NOISE of the aircon etc when you have to take them out is wild.
Could someone please fix hard drives.
I’ve relegated the Synology to the basement. I can still hear it grinding at night.
There are special brackets for mounting HDDs, where there are rubber rings interposed between the mounting screws and the bracket, in order to prevent the transmission of the HDD vibrations to the chassis, which usually greatly amplifies the HDD noise.
With such brackets the noise is usually reduced a lot. There are some computer cases that are advertised as silent cases and which include such brackets by default (e.g. from Fractal Design).
Someone did, but they're still slightly more expensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive
I found that putting them on something soft helps a lot. It seems to be mostly vibrations that are transferred to whatever it's sitting on.
Try styrofoam, a couple layers of soft packaging wrap, thick cloth, etc.
My other hack is WOL + auto-suspend for my NAS. Wakes up for backup jobs, goes back to sleep when done (and there are no SSH sessions left open). Very hacky but works flawlessly. (Usually.)
In your case I would probably buy a couple of floral or similar foam bricks and try to decouple device from whatever surface it is standing on.
It's probably coupling the vibration into whatever shelf it's sitting on, which then transduces it to the air. Set the unit on some foam, it helps a lot.
I bought some custom molded earplugs recently and I got 3 sets - two are completely sealed off and are very nice for when I wish for peace and quiet and don’t need to hear or speak.
I also use noise canceling mode on my airpods pro quite often.
The advantage is that it works even when I’m in an environment I can’t control, like an airport or waiting room.
Sensaphonics?
This guy has built a completely silent version: https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/monochrome-2-my-cu...
This is pretty cool. His design seems to be able to handle the full iGPU loads too:
https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/monochrome-2-my-cu...
His trick is to use a number of heat pipes (that transfer the heat through vaporization), and a really really big heat sink (a 5kg copper plate).
Which goes to 76°C if you run the PC at full load for a couple of hours. I prefer a little noise than burning myself.
76 is bad? My AMD Ryzen 9 7950X CPU frequently touches 90C whenever I play games or do heavy load stuff.
The CPU is at 99, the case is at 76.
The whole black part of the case is for cooling if I understand correctly, so compared to your computer where the CPU can reach 90+ but the case stays at most warm, there the whole case reaches 70+ degrees.
It would be 70+ at the die. The heat would dissipate. It would be hot. But not 70+ degrees hot.
https://i.imgur.com/3DdP6aX.png
Oh damn yeah that's a whole different thing. Can easily heat a room with it during winter.
Maybe a really mild winter; it's the same power as when I had my overhead light (2 60W lightbulbs) on in my room as a kid, and that didn't heat my room all on its own.
It's dissipating the same amount of heat as the same CPU with fans. The difference here is the heat is inside it instead of blown out into the air.
With the (mild) winter here I heat my home office room just with my 34.5" display, and it draws 45W ^^; (well, and my body heat)
Thanks! I love Noctua but this is even more interesting than the article here.
That's a very cool hack, but there are tons of things on a system that aren't the CPU that would benefit from some moving air. A fan somewhere in the system that just moves a bit of air would, I think, really contribute to the overall longevity.
Would be wicked if it was one of those passive cooling systems that create movement of air just via temperature differentials
That wouldn't necessarily be silent though.
Passive convection flows would not be audible.
It’s more likely to be quieter than a fan.
phones and iPads are similar and can get fairly hot, and they last a very long time if you replace the battery occasionally.
Phones and tablets are designed for passive cooling. And not always well to boot, but you can at least assume they didn’t design for elements with ancillary active cooling.
I don't think there are power supplies in an iphone that need to output 120W.
It's the temperature that matters here, not the wattage.
The one tends to cause the other. There aren't any FETs anywhere in an iPhone that are passing 100A continuously. In any case, it's designed for that situation, whereas the Framework Desktop is designed under the presumption of the presence of a fan.
[dead]
Is Framework planning to ship this at some point? It seems pretty bad to need to print your own grill when Noctua collaborated on the project.
This isn't a problem. The article says that this is only if you're looking to trade-off performance for less noise:
> In other words, we would only recommend upgrading to the NF-A12x25 G2 if you seek to lower noise levels as much as possible and if you are willing to sacrifice the maximum performance headroom in worst-case scenarios that the G1 HS-PWM fan provides.
That's for switching to the NF-A12x25 G2 fan (from the G1), which has a lower max RPM. The improved side panel appears to be a strict improvement.
It doesn't say that:
> In addition to redesigning and testing the Noctua fan grill, we also evaluated various other scenarios. These included replacing the NF-A12x25 with its G2 variant and incorporating an additional 8cm fan for exhaust purposes.
> It seems pretty bad to need to print your own grill when Noctua collaborated on the project.
not really, like if that would be seen as bad in general then the only solution would be to keep it a secret that they "collaborated" on it
like giving you employees a bit of time to work on product related passion projects, which might even cross company boundaries and can be used in a PR context is one thing. And a good example for it is software companies reserving some time of employees to work on OSS (in a context where OSS contributions go beyond what the company needs). It boost employee moral, is positive PR, let people learn/train their skills etc.
but going from there to a product they sell is a HUGE step, like far larger then it seems
like the cost between the tinkerer project from the article and turning it into a product is more like a x-times multipler then some two digit % increase.
a good example is a previous collaboration where for a 3d printed casing for the framework 13 motherboard, where due to high demand they then decided to produce it
but for production lines you now need to meet higher quality standard and 3d printing often isn't an option, so no it needs 2 molds and in addition the screw now need to have proper stable/metal thingies you screw them into in-layed into the mold. And you need to have QA, production line inspections etc. Idk. if they made money or a loss or neutral on it but at least from a QA perspective they got burned as many of the casings had quality issues where you needed to fix them with a sharp knife or they wouldn't close properly
now companies have 3 choices
- not allow such passion projects, which sucks for everyone
- allows them, but keep them secret, which still sucks for most
- rebrand it as "some vision prototype", "experimental change to the form factor" or similar (which is what many other tech companies do), now most people are happy except the tinkerers which could just print it, let it be printed with a 3d printing service
- allow them, show them, and make most people happy except the small amount of people which really want it, aren't fine with any tinkering and blame the company for showing something nice which might not make sense to sell as a product
and in that context I really prefer it the way Framework and Noctua tend to do it
"The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter. "
Appears that it doesn't pass safety guidelines, so this is one way to get around that.
No, they changed the grille to adhere to the standard. Very clearly stated in the very next sentence.
Not surprising that Noctua is the favorite Buy it for Life producer from Austria by far: https://bifldb.com/austria/ Congrats.
Austrian companies also seem to be both overrepresented and the entire top ~30 of the pile. I like Noctua bit I smell bias.
Noctua was founded and operates in accordance with my values. I valued what they offer before they were in the market and was overjoyed to buy their products as soon as they were available.
Raspberry Pis, repurposed HP DL380s, personal art projects... anything that ever needed a fan--if it didn't use Noctua fans before I started and there was an application for a Noctua fan, a Noctua fan was applied.
Fan quality is one of the metrics I evaluate when I purchase products. Great fan solutions in products are good indicators of great design.
Why was solodolo's comment killed
Fanless is heavy and expensive but IMO it's worth it considering all the problems with fans, including noise and longevity
There is nothing wrong with solodolo's comment, unless I am missing something
Personal experience with fanless is the computer indeed gets used for more years than ones with fans
"Industrial" computers are often fanless
Not every computer is used for playing graphical video games
It looks like their account was banned, though they only have a couple comments before that one. I can't tell you why it was banned.
Its really cool how, despite the core chip at the heart of the Framework Desktop not being that extensible, Framework went out of their way to make the FD as extensible and modular as possible, and are fostering a community of 3D printing stuff around it.
I loves me some Noctua. I suspect that the very quiet single 120mm is enough to keep air moving sufficiently through my 3090 GPU server chassis (though I also put a couple 80mm where 4U chassis airflow narrows in the rear, just to be safe).
I also put Noctuas in short-depth 1U servers and routers at home, usually 40mm.
Meanwhile in another dimension: http://move.rupy.se/file/nuctua_radxa.png (spelled it wrong I know but too late...)
Nocuta is a case study in how to make a high quality and luxury product to dominate a seemly small market. In a seemingly commoditized market where fans can be had for $3-$4 Nocuta still demands and get's $30-$40 dollars.
I don't think they dominate. Noctua used to be the best, but current reputation as far as I've seen is that the performance isn't necessarily better than the competition. You buy them for durability and supporting the engineering, but most (not some/fringe) DIY builders choose a cheaper brand.
It's a bit more pronounced in CPU cooling towers, they are solid blocks where durability doesn't play a role. Noctua is good but the top performer and market leader is Thermalright which costs a third of Noctua.
Noctua also provides free new mounts. I've had the same NH-D12 for over a decade now and whenever I switch CPU socket they send me a new mount for free.
Do you have data to backup your assertion?
Cheap Chinese clones eventually arrive when a successfully company dominates a market.
It does not mean that they no longer dominate.
Nope no data, that's why I prefixed with "I don't think". It's a sentiment from six months of reading product reviews and forum discussions. I took some good time building a new desktop.
People were recommending Noctua for long term durability, sure. But seems it's a minority who's willing to pay the premium for that.
Some data would of course be interesting.
Edit: Mindfactory is one of the few that publishes numbers. On a quick glance (didn't sum totals) looks like Arctic leads, followed by be quiet! and Noctua on the third spot. be quiet! is a German brand so that gets somewhat biased.
https://www.mindfactory.de/Hardware/Kuehlung+Luft/Gehaeuselu...
I did a quick data extraction on that linked Mindfactory segment, and be quiet! leads after all. As said, not quite representative but maybe indicative.
Not sure I agree here. Yes, maybe it's 10x the price (which I doubt in the first place) it's actually performing very well, measurably.
I don't know how you benchmark a Rolex vs a Seiko for 500 bucks. That is luxury to me. And yet it is perfectly fine to argue a Casio for 10-20 bucks performs just as well.
The case study results would be "make a product that's really hard to make and that people want"
Fair, but sort of my point. Make a extraordinary superior product in a very niche market and educated consumers will pay. Sure, there will always be uneducated or just "frugal" or cheap consumers but they are the fringe. Example are luxury brands such as Mercedes or Rolex. A hot take, but can't be denied as well Apple.
THE RGB fan makers are the ones making the real money.
With the all-flat layout of the Ryzen APU and soldered memory I always though the framework desktop MB would be ideal for a single waterblock covering the entire MB.
Too bad the most recent fanless Nvidia card is the RTX 3050 6GB, wish there was a 4060 8GB released
https://www.palit.com/palit/vgapro.php?id=5147&lang=en
Technically the NVIDIA RTX PRO 6000 Blackwell Server Edition is passive. It would rely on server case airflow though.
Gotta give it the old Noctua and blow on that thang. Their fans are seriously awesome. I didn’t believe the hype at first until a Ryzen build was 5-15C cooler, and a lot quieter.
Aside: any chance to load a real GPU like a 4070 or 5070 in this system, maybe even on the side?
If it's running an LLM you're thinking of, there was a post yesterday on r/LocalLLaMa from someone who put a 24 GB VRAM AMD 7900xtx into their GMK X2: https://old.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1ni5tq3/amd_max...
The GMK X2 doesn't have the Framework motherboard, but it's the same AMD APU, so the characteristics should be similar.
This really ought to be a consumer-grade LLM powerhouse, but the results were underwhelming. Due to the APU design, bandwidth between the APU and the discrete GPU is limited. From the Reddit poster "In this case adding the 7900xtx is effectively like just having another 24GB added to the 128GB."
Running an AMD GPU with the AMD APU should save the headache of dealing with both Nvidia and AMD drivers on the same host. It's possible that an Nvidia GPU might give better performance here, or there might be other optimizations to be made.
A GPU like that wouldn’t fit in the case and kinda defeats the purpose of getting the included mobo/CPU/iGPU combo... so why are you trying to make a discrete GPU work with that PC at all rather than just getting mini-ITX system with a standard desktop CPU?
the motherboard does have a 4x pcie slot, but the default case wouldn't fit a second gpu
you can buy it without the case: https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards?compatibility%5B%5...
P.S. the igpu in this really is comparable to a 'real' gpu in performance, with the bonus of being able to allocate arbitrary amount of vram
I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.
I agree, but here's a quote from the CEO explaining (to some degree) the choice:
(from https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=445 via https://www.ifixit.com/News/108396/framework-let-us-in-for-a...)I never understand this justification. If the tech does not allow, then don't do it if it's against your own core value. Instead, they join the quick cash grab AI-train.
This is literally the best option to run Linux on M-series Mac class hardware.
Even though it's not upgradable (because of the laws of physics), it's still a positive development.
So don't buy it. Plenty of people aren't bothered and love it.
If they made the memory upgradable it would defeat the purpose of the machine, since memory modules can’t hit the same speed as soldered memory.
If you’re buying this you’re probably maxing out the memory to start with. 128GB is borderline barely adequate for local LLMs.
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment.
Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/...
> The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
Right, you'd put in two of them.
Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there.
If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
If they made the computer unupgradable it would defeat the purpose of their company.
LPCAMM2 can, its a shame Framework couldn't make it happen.
I don't understand how many parts people really upgrade these days.
For one, the memory is soldered on because it's integral to the GPU the same way it's integral to the Apple's M3, and can be used the same up to 96gb.
At the form factor, what else are you expecting to upgrade over it's lifetime?
This statement makes it sound like there's a lot to upgrade when it's mostly just memory people seem confused about.
Most people probably never upgrade their machines at all. In my case I used the same PC from 2009 until about a month ago. Over its 16 year lifespan it saw 3 GPUs, the memory was doubled from 6GB to 12GB, a Wifi card was added (and then got flakey after about 7 years but was able to switch to Ethernet over coax with MoCa), and an SSD was added for hosting the OS and most apps (original HDD relegated to additional storage).
If you're planning for a 10-12 year lifespan I have this advice. CPUs have surprising longevity these days as most usages don't significantly tax them, go a little above mid range on core count and it should last. GPUs are a throwaway item, plan to replace them every 3-5 years to stay current. Storage can be something that's worth adding if you're planning for a long lifespan and depending on usage. Photos, video, and games use more storage than they used to but personal photos and videos largely live in the cloud now. RAM you might need to upgrade if you go midrange but might not if you aim higher than standard in the initial build. The buses and interfaces become the main limiting factors to longevity. RAM technology will advance, PCIe and USB will have new versions. There may be new standards you can't take advantage of, like I was still on SATA II when the world had since moved on to SATA III and then NVMe.
Sometimes it's more about repairability than upgradability. My stuff lasted but I've had HDDs, PSUs, and fans die in the past. It's nice to be able to replace a dead part and move on.
I will also say that I'm a little surprised that the enthusiast market is still mostly these big ATX mid tower cases. They feel massive and unnecessary today when 5.25" bays are obsolete and storage is not 3.5" HDDs but an m.2 chips that sit flush with the motherboard. The smaller form factors are still the exception. Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
> Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
I think it's more to have a big window with lots of RGB LEDs to show off on the internet.
Newer SFF cases from Ncase/Formd/Louqe are designed with perforations or mesh on every exterior surface to maximize air flow. They can support an air-cooled 5090 and an AIO or massive tower cooler for the CPU. Put a 1000W SFX PSU in there and I don't know if you'd really be wanting for anything spec-wise.
> Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
For me, no. I bought a big case, Fractal North XL. It sits on the floor next to my desk so the size really doesn't matter at all to me, except I want it tall enough so that it's convenient to turn on.
It's a nice bonus that building and maintenance is also easier, but it's frankly it's the reaching convenience that matters the most. Could even be a bit larger still.
A small platform to elevate the case off the floor can help lower dust accumulation and may also help it reach the perfect button pushing height for you!
Hehe never thought of that but might not be a bad idea!
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
It is ironic, but there's a sound technical reason here. They wouldn't be able to get the same memory performance using upgradeable slotted DIMMs. I do appreciate that Framework offers the motherboards for sale so you can use them with your own case and power supply.
It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc.
I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds.
So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
Frameworks laptops are upgradeable, that's their whole thing.
> It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
That makes it more surprising. It's not that desktops went off in a different direction. Desktops are moving closer to their area of expertise and yet they are unable to apply that expertise.
But their own laptops happen to have upgrade-able memory. Truly, it is just unjustifiable.
Their laptops don't have Strix Halo chips.
There is a part salvage factor to consider. If one can pull the drive, they can attempt to send it out for data recovery or wipe it for resale. If they can also pull the RAM, they can recover more costs.
You lack the knowledge of the AI Max chip. You can’t have slots. It requires soldered memory because it’s unified.
Please don't turn this site into Slashdot or Reddit. You can make your point without being rude.
Rude wasn’t my intent, it’s just a weird chip.
It requires soldered memory because no one makes LPCAMM2 modules for LPDDR5x
https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm...
https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpc...
They do.
Backordered, sure. Call me when I can go to Microcenter and pick up a set.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th...
That particular source is sold out but it's not where a computer manufacturer is getting parts.
The availability is real. You can buy a thinkpad with LPCAMM2 right now, and in fact you've been able to buy that laptop for over a year. And you can get it with 64GB modules, which is what you'd need to set up 128GB on a 256 bit memory bus.
"because it's unified" is definitely not the reason.
Here’s a unified AMD with an NPU, and socketed ram:
https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-ser8-8845hs
Note that it’s two generations old, and the newer ones have soldered ram.
Every AMD and Intel APU has had unified memory for many generations, as have mobile devices. It's sad how many people Apple's marketing has misled about something that's been standard in the industry for ages.
> It must be noted that customer safety and EMC requirements for the mini PC, a standalone electrical item, differ from those for hardware components (such as the PSU) designed to be inside a PC case. The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter.
...but it's a plastic panel? I don't understand how this helps with EMC.
It's a safety standard, so the requirement is "toddlers can't get their fingers stuck in the fan".
If I were that concerned about noise from my computers, I would leverage the inverse square law and put them in another room and use long video and input cables.
If you use HDR 4k or even 5k screens and are looking for a decent framerate, the maximum cable length is quite short (on the order of 3m for an UHBR10 DP40).
There exist solutions for that with active cables or optical cables, but that quickly gets expensive and complicated.
So just use Noctua fans? That'd do it.
It's more than just the Noctua fan. The fan grille is a contributing factor to noise [0]. The new design features in the article could reduce the noise of any 120mm fan.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32923226
Well the fan in the Framework desktop is some kind of purpose built high performance Noctua fan that is significantly louder than usual. So they are suggesting to use the new grill with the fan that comes with it so you don't encounter throttling.
Its been a while since I looked into "just use Noctua" for $another_use_case, but ...
Isn't the problem with Noctua (and similar "silent" fans) that they don't offer the same airflow throughput as their noise making bretheren ?
So sometimes its not as easy as "just use Noctua" ?
Noctua makes 2000rpm and 3000rpm max variants of the NF-F12. Otherwise, through (over)engineered geometry and materials, their fans usually do push the most air volume and pressure at a given volume level, with a more pleasant sound profile. But you pay for it.
Worth noting that you are also paying for the service.
I have RMA'd many fans through them and the experience is quick and painless every time.
Noctua fans are quieter than most for a given airflow level.
They have a range of fan speeds going up to very high speeds.
Many people doing modifications will substitute a lower airflow fan for even more noise reduction, which might be why you’re thinking they flow less. That’s a function of fan choice, though.
Noctua fans perform very well on a noise-adjusted basis.
I think noctua fans are just better fans, noisewise.
They have better airflow design and sound dampening/isolating screw mounts.
I think the idea about reduced airflow might be backwards - most systems use PWM to spin the fans based on CPU or system temperature. This means the systems get the airflow they need.
Also, they make larger heatsinks + fans for certain systems that allow the same airflow using a larger, slower spinning fan. which means less sound.
that said, there are some noctua fans that can spin faster than others.
Their big fans do push enough air, the small ones are questionable
If you're looking for 40mm or 80mm you're better off with sunon maglev or similar
For some applications such as cooling of an extruder for a 3D printer Noctua fans indeed don't offer sufficient airflow.
But I don't think that's an issue for computer cooling unless you're talking about extreme circumstances.
There is no way the EMC situation is maintained with that modification.
Framework lets you buy bare mainboards, if you can't run those on your table without the radio police swatting your house then they wouldn't be allowed to sell them anyway.
There’s more to it than that. It’s better for the longevity of the components to be shielded, and the noise it gives iff could bother you in your home, in terms of wifi, Bluetooth, etc interference. I practice electric guitar at home and I don’t want an unshielded computer near me when I’m doing that.
> It’s better for the longevity of the components to be shielded
Can you say more about this?
I tried to find sources to verify and it wasn’t as easy as I thought.
I just assumed that shielding your components from EMI would shield them from voltage spikes due to EMI.
It does shield you from bit flips due to EMI.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/10805927
So much work just because AMD can't create a good APU like Apple with the MacMini! WTF!